Living With The Background Noise of Ableism with Kiruna Stamell
- Peta
- 6 hours ago
- 22 min read
Actor Kiruna Stamell joins Peta Hooke for a deeply honest conversation about what it means to live with what she calls the background noise of ableism. Best known to Australian audiences for her work as a presenter on the iconic children’s show Play School, Kiruna reflects on why disability representation for young children matters and how normalising difference can shape attitudes from the very beginning of life.
Kiruna speaks openly about systemic barriers she has faced throughout her life and career, including discrimination in education, exclusion within the acting industry, and immigration policies that make it difficult for her disabled husband to move to Australia.
Kiruna also reflects on ageing in the entertainment industry, the ongoing pressure to prove capability as a disabled actor, and the emotional toll of confronting ableism repeatedly. What emerges is a thoughtful and candid conversation about frustration, resilience, and choosing what to focus on when discrimination never fully disappears.
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Key Topics Discussed
In this episode, we discuss:
Disability representation on Play School and why early exposure matters
How children learn acceptance and why discrimination is often taught
The systemic barriers disabled people face in education, employment and immigration
The emotional toll of ableism and the “background noise” many disabled people live with
Ageing as a disabled actor and navigating the entertainment industry
Choosing which battles to fight in a world that still misunderstands disability
Why everyday human connection matters more than public recognition
Transcript:
00:00:03
Peta: Hello, and welcome to the I Can't Stand Podcast, the show that explores what it's like to live with the disability. I'm Peter Hook, I have silver palsy, and I'm your host. Today's guest is actor Kirana stamml In this conversation, Kiarana reflects on her time as a host on the Australian institution Play School and why normalizing disability for young children matters so deeply. We then move on to much harder territory. Kiarana speaks openly about the background noise of ableism that follows her through her life and her career, from discrimination in education and the workplace, to systemic immigration barriers, to being assaulted in the street and fighting to have the footage removed from social media. We also talk about aging in the industry, the exhaustion of having to re explain disability again and again, and the tension between ambition and the barriers that still exist. What I believe emerges is a deeply honest conversation about frustration, resilience, integrity, and choosing what to focus on when discrimination never fully disappears. So, without any further ado, his Kurana.
00:01:48
Kiruna: Hello, I'm Kirana. I'm an actress. I suppose the most recent Australian based thing I've done is probably the work that I've done on Play School as a host. So you've got the children, I don't know, you just enjoy watching Place for yourself and you've seen the little blonde lady with dwarf ism that would be me.
00:02:07
Peta: And it's such an amazing thing to have disability of representation. Particularly it's such a fundamental age. You must have totally pinched yourself when you got that work, because I know you would understand the consequences, the positive consequences of having that representation on such a mainstream, important show in Australian culture.
00:02:30
Kiruna: It's actually the work as an actress I am the most proud of because I think representation and at such a young age where children are exposed to it, and I remember, I think, you know, being a child watching Place call myself and it being such a healthy space, and I'm really glad that I was able to represent be part of that. And it was really interesting actually because I would come to astray you to do it. Because I'm based in the UK, I noticed that there'd be this a sort of like three or four year old that would just be looking at me but with like a really kind of slightly glassy eyed look, and I was like, what's going on? I mean, are they just trying to work out the whole Dwarfism thing? And then my mum, who was with me at the time, went to the child, darling, have you seen Kurana on play school? And the little kids was like yes, and she was like, would you like to say hi to Kurana? And I couldn't believe my mother was actually facilitating my interaction with my vans and we had a lovely chat. But yeah, you just realized how important the normalization of difference and disability is the children being able to see me do things differently. Like I remember there was one moment in an episode where the producers wanted me to tie a balloon and I've got quite stubby fingers that are not particularly dexterous, and I find balloon tying particularly disabling. So we were doing a rehearsal and I had improvised a solution which was I can't remember what my solution was at the time, but it was deemed by their producers to be unsafe because children shouldn't be having access to small little bits of plastic, and so the producers were like, oh, Kurina, you can't do it that way. And I was like, why don't we just do a take and I will improvise and explain what's happening to the kids. And they were like, oh, oh, okay, they're a bit nervous. I' much. It's only rehearsals. If you don't like it, we can work other ways. So I was really honest and I said, okay, you know hi, right, Kurana has got really small hands and I'm not really strong at time balloons. So I've got some friends that have given me this little clip that I'm going to use to cheat, but it's not really safe for you guys, because it's something really only an adult should use. So you might need to go and ask an adult with hands bigger than knee to help you tie your balloon. And they were like, oh, that really works. Actually, it's really great that the kids are hearing you talk about it. Normalize it, explain your adaptation, explain why it might not be appropriate for them to use your adaptation, and give them another option, which is to ask a grown up with bigger hands that can tie the balloon for them kids seeing those adaptations and having that anxiety removed from them is hugely important because I was amazed that here I am working with these really lovely adults, but their anxiety that I couldn't tie a balloon and that sort of like feeling, oh my god, you and I can't tie the Oh my god, where am I going to look? This is so awkward. Oh oh, we've created it and just dispelling it.
00:05:28
Peta: And I think that really encapitulates. I think how important it is to educate children about disability early, because I think discrimination is a learned experience that kids don't automatically discriminate until they're told to do it a certain way or they understand the concept of othering. Because I think inherently kids are very accepting and they're just curious and interested. That's my personal perspective, and it's so clear to me how important your work is and was on play School, because those adults that you're working with, if they had have had you on play school when they were a kid, they would have realized not to be so anxious about allowing you to explore an accessibility adaptation and it's fine for you to do it a different way and then not to feel so anxious about doing the wrong thing and just treating you like a human.
00:06:27
Kiruna: Disability is the one minority group we recruit, like you simply just need to live long enough, and you were going to join us in some capacity, like something's going to fall off, or even have a child with a disability, or you're going to become elderly and maybe develop dementia, or like, there are so many things that can happen to a person in the world simply because they've existed long enough that chance means boom. You know, you're now in the disabled community. And it would be great if society prepared people for that in a month more honest and relaxed fashion, rather than the shame and derogatory, ablest statements that I hear so often out and about in the world. It's a really interesting time for me because I think now that I'm in my mid forties and I'm getting older, I'm more aware definitely of the barriers that society places in front of us because of ableism that aren't considered at all. I mean, I hadn't realized this as an Australian until I fell in love with a man overseas who is also disabled, that we can't immigrate back. Obviously, I'm a citizen and was born in Australian am Australian, but spousal visas and things are still subject to the health component and my husband's disability and chronic health condition and pretty much rule him out. So if I was wanting to come back and live in Australia, I actually don't know how we would finance it, And we would have to be publicly campaigning and publicly having this conversation and trying to actually change the system. That's like a huge gamble and really hard to do, and you're not physically living there already and set up to do it. I don't know how I kind of stay so calm with all of it, really, because Yeah, I guess just as a disabled person, there's always that background noise and that pressure to your life, that there are government and decisions that are bigger than you that are disabling you know, I mean, And I guess that's what really informs my disabled identity, and that I feel not disabled by my body per se, but disabled by the social stuff and barriers that are human made or at least if they're not human made, haven't decided to remove them as barriers.
00:09:04
Peta: I think I'm going to probably make possibly an unfair assumption, but I'm going to assume that the people that have made those decisions or policies don't have a disability themselves, so inherently they see as disability as a bad thing, you know. And that's again where both our work is so important, because we both know disability has so many positives that we really need to keep working to make sure that this is truthfully communicated. But I'm really interested to sort of tap into your unique perspective because obviously you have lived in both countries, being Australia and the UK, and you obviously have emigrated over to the UK and you were accepted, you know, even though Australia wouldn't do the same thing for your partner, which is awful. How do you do you think disability is viewed in a different way in Australia versus the UK.
00:10:05
Kiruna: In the UK I get a lot more avert discrimination, negativity and rudeness on the street, but an acknowledgment of that at government level and therefore trying to compensate and alleviate the disadvantage that those barriers were creating for an individual. In Australia, people are generally generally polite and in terms of when you're in a shared space more, I guess less avert about their prejudices. But I was meeting a lot of discrimination behind the scenes in Australia, like going for ordinary workplace jobs, or when I auditioned for drama school and they openly told me there's no point training a dwarf, even though I'd made it to kind of like the final round. I don't know, there was no sort of government support for me at that point. I was kind of the generation of disabled people that were kind of mainstream school but in that sense of well, you've asked to be mainstream, so there you go, make it work. So nobody thought about making the home economics kitchen accessible for me. So I just never did a home X class or in the science lab. I just lost interest in science. But it was literally only in the you know, when I was in the UK and met people that were involved in the disabled movement over here that I went, oh my god, now wonder I wasn't interested in science. I couldn't access the science bench. I couldn't. So I just subconsciously in high school went, oh, well, I guess I just must not be interested in that. I didn't see those barriers while I was in Australia because that disability rights movement hadn't quite happened yet, or it was happening differently, and then while I was in the UK. You guys, basically it feels like literally only in the last ten years, you know, had the NDIS scheme and you know, more progressive movements in terms of disability rights and things actually come into force. So it was later than the UK, but i'd left by them. So yeah, just quite fascinating for me to see all of it. Yet. The one thing I will say is if I experienced discrimination in Britain on a commercial level, like so, I had an incident ooh maybe about sixteen years ago, sixteen seventeen years ago now where I ended up actually suing the post office. I had a postmaster refused to provide me service because I couldn't reach the chip and pin machine that they had bolted to the service counter. I've tried to address it. They refused to talk to me, they refused me service. The woman just then pretended she couldn't see me, so I left. I wrote letters over a six month period. They ignored me. I was literally just workshopping solutions. And it was only when a disabled friend of mine who was a campaigner, went, oh, Karen, I like, just here's the name for a disability rights lawyer I was able to actually sue. Didn't make me rich just putting it out there now, because the compensation for that kind of discrimination is quite low. But what it meant was I had a way of addressing what happened, and the Post Office had to unbolt the chip and pin machines and make them accessible for people. I mean, the only reason I bothered to go legal is because will you make these choices all the time?
00:13:36
Peta: Don't you?
00:13:36
Kiruna: As a disabled person? Which fight am I going to pick up? Which fight am I slowly walking away from by backing out of the room and just having a quiet life, like you're always making those decisions. And the reason I decided to sue the post Office was because they were the post Office. That it wasn't like I could go, oh, well, screw your post Office. I'm going to go and get exactly the same services you provide from your competitor. There was no competitor, you know, and at the time, knowing that I couldn't reach the majority of ATM machines, the post Office was so vital for my access. We need to tackle that of human beings, you know, our issue with otherness, our issue with vulnerability, and I would love to see us truly value the professions where you know, what reward the people who are kind, who do the jobs that other people sneer at. Like, I just think we've got to flip it because the people in power at the moment, they're awful. They're awful, They're do say. I mean, I'll tell you one thing that really pissed me off about the whole Trump discussion. I said, from the moment he mocked that disabled reporter, I'm like, that sums him.
00:14:49
Peta: Up for me.
00:14:51
Kiruna: All those women behind him with the Mara Lago face, they are mean girls. And his sons are cruel, creepy, ugh icky men that think they're uber attractive with their conspiracies and big money and tech bro attitude. I don't know, I'm going off piece a bit at the moment, but I'm just like, yeah, I just think, ugh, it's.
00:15:19
Peta: Always interesting to because I never know where a conversation is going to go. And that's partly why I really like my job cure er. But have you something triggered in you where you felt really athered in your disability at the moment, Like, why is this coming up for you now?
00:15:39
Kiruna: I was assaulted on the streets. I'm gonna be really honest in this podcast. I always try to podcast be really honest and really vulnerable. I was assaulted on the street. It was filmed. The footage of me being assaulted is still on TikTok with over ten million plus views, vile comments. I try not to look at them. I immediately pressed charges after the assault, but I can't get TikTok to take the footage down. There are so many bots doing the customer service, and then so many barriers between getting my complaint and the complaints that others have lodged to the right people to get the footage taken down, even though there's a crime number. The guy was arrested, he was fine. He had to do one hundred and fifty hours of community service. I was discriminated against because of my height. Essentially, I was jumped over on the street. A man ran up behind me and jumped over me, and if he'd knocked me, landed on me, I would have been completely paralyzed, because you're talking about a twenty something like three times my weight. He thought it was hilarious. The footage is terrible. You can't really see it very clearly. That's the one thankful thing about it. But the disablest comments underneath it a vile wanting to actually try and pursue it through the legal route rather than get into it through the media or socially. And partly that as well is because you know, I know that the majority of your audience are kind of knowing regarding disability, but there is so much discrimination against disabled people and people with dwarfism that I don't I just don't want to have to be dealing with trolls, negativity or god forbid, touch would turning it into a trend or something ideous, do you know what I mean? Like, so, I'm just trying to legally deal with it.
00:17:36
Peta: I'm so sorry. That's a lot. I mean, obviously, being assaulted is you know, a whole thing, not only for your mental health, for your physical safety. I'm really sorry that happened to you, But then to have to fight to get that video taken down, and to be ignored is just another level of total discrimination. How do you cope with that mentally to keep wanting to I mean, obviously you have to because it's a sense of safety and security not only for yourself but for the disability community. So as you say, it doesn't become a trend, but like many of us, Kurita, you have to continually fight, and I'm really sorry you have to do it.
00:18:24
Kiruna: I mean, everyone in humanity to some degree is carrying a bag of rocks, you know, whether it's like, Okay, you are non disabled but you've had really traumatic experiences, or you're disabled and you have really traumatic experiences. Like everyone's carrying stuff, and I think things like the fact that I've got this assault in my background, I've got the battle with TikTok. That's kind of you know, creeping along, and it'll be slow because all of this stuff with the social media companies is slow. People can't know that when they look at me, you know. But I want to share it because I want us to be more aware that you see somebody like me with like doing fun stuff on play school or having a really nice acting career, and you don't know all of the grafting or the work that's going on in the background, to just live in order to function, in order to have the life I want to live, in order to be the leading lady of my own movie. In my own life. I mean metaphorically, I'm having to choose what I focus on. And it's not that I'm in denial about the difficult things that I might be currently dealing with in my life, but I try to file them appropriately and to kind of deal with it while it ticks over. But I don't want it to dominate my life, because my life is about my acting, my marriage, my cute little dog, you know, the family that I love, my friends, the things that I want to experience and do. My life isn't about the bullshit that you experience sometimes as a disabled person. However, it is on me present, and it's almost like just part of the background static and what I would say does actually shit me about it. Because I was thinking about this the other day. It's actually really good to talk to you, Peter. I was thinking about all of the challenges I've had, how awesomely I've done. I say that, but having started so far back from the start, line and still done okay, And I was thinking, oh my god, maybe I would have like solved world peace if I wasn't dealing with this bullshit. And it's so unfair that I'm having to deal with it, and it's made me angry. And you know, I'll tell you one thing that came up recently on my way to my HSC maths exam. Right, so I'm on my way to the hall and a group of lads who I don't know, don't know their age, leaned out of the car as they drove past me and abused me, shouting midget, Oh my god, how unfair is that I would have been sat in that exam full of adrenaline, focusing brilliantly on the maths paper because like me, dealing with the TikTok noise in the background at the moment, but pursuing my life. But that little bit of brain power that maybe would have really elevated me in that exam, or really elevated me in lots of other areas in my life, has just been devoted to dealing with the bullshit opinions of others perpetually, and how much that sucks. It's because I am not only working as an actress, not only also managing a day job at the moment, but I am also doing a master's conversion degree with the Open University in psychology because as an actress. As an aside, I'm getting older, I'm in my forties, I'm a disabled woman. I have no idea what might be open for me in the industry in the future, especially because I've never wanted to do stereotypical and derogatory roles. But women, generally actresses in their forties start to play people's moms, god, grandma's you know what I mean. And I know that that will be really new ground for me to move into those spaces in the industry, and I know that that's another fight, right So in the back of my head, I'm like, I want to keep working on me so that I am never trapped by the limitations of others. I want to know that I've got choice. I've been breaking ground as an actor for so long and done some really good work, but that every time I feel like the industry is still a little bit stuck and wants me to have the baby level conversation with them all over again and be grateful to be doing just a couple of lines and in it at all, it's not enough for me. I need the industry to step up. And then I think in terms of, oh, well, you know, I could go off and maybe move into producing and make work. And I could. But even in the business end of it, in any industry, as a disabled person, there are so many barriers you're constantly having to break down. Like if I was an entrepreneur, I'm not saying you couldn't do it. I'm not saying you couldn't be amazing and make millions, but you would need to as a dessay person, particularly with a visible disability. So remembering that the bias is there before you've begun. I know that invisible impairments have their challenges as well, and I'm not saying that that's not real.
00:24:13
Peta: It's real.
00:24:14
Kiruna: But I'm just saying that as somebody where visibly it gets flagged ahead of me, it means that doors are shut. There's no choice not to disclose. On the other hand, it's a great filter. The people that choose to work with me, the people that I click with, the people that I do business with, in every context are awesome, amazing, open minded. They tend to be really clever people. The thing is a performer, and as an actress, I want to be seen, as in I want my humanity to be seen. I want the humanity of any character I play to be seen. People do see me, and it's great, things like in play school. It's wonderful. I'm seen and I'm making change. But I don't want to do roles that don't make those changes in some capacity. And I live in a society and within an industry that is still so blinkered in its thinking. For a casting agent to say to me, oh, do you want this little kind of role where you're going to have three lines? No? No, I want a proper job.
00:25:26
Peta: It's interesting, and I'm very aware that it's very late where you are cure enough. But as a disabled person, I really relate to what you're saying, of course, and I think that's where I am not built to be a creative in the spaces that you are, because I would find it's so frustrating to be reliant on somebody else to give you the opportunities for success. And I think a lot of other disabled people feel the same way, which is why many of us end up working for ourselves. Because in the end, and we're going to have to prove to other people that we're capable, that we're really good at our jobs, and the only way we're going to do that is by working for ourselves and proving it ourselves. With that in mind, have you ever thought about going into writing and you know, having that reality of what your life is in all its complexities actually shown on media.
00:26:28
Kiruna: I know what you mean, in terms of thinking about taking that control back a little bit and just kind of actually in a sense kind of like, I guess producing myself again, which I kind of did way back in the beginning, and it's sort of bubbling away as a concept and a bit of an idea. I just genuinely at the moment, don't know. I mean, I think it's interesting that this anger is bubbled up about that kind of feeling of being held back. I was watching an interview with Emma Thompson and who played mister Bean what's his name, Adkinson Rowan Atkinson, And what's really interesting is hearing them talk, all of them career wise, really found like they're you know, like Ron Atkinson kind of you know, footlights Cambridge. That was really kind of then linked to productions and connections to Emma Thompson. You see that all of these people have their little like click and they're in the cool group early on and support one another and rise and become really big stars. But as a disabled person, it feels like I'm always in the outgroup. Like yeah, people see me and go, yeah, you're really cool. Yeah, we really like what you do. But you feel like you're doing it alone. Like it's not like I'm looking at film and television going there's an uber successful disabled person earning shitloads as a top level regular star. You see people rise, you see them have their moment, you see them okay, but it's the sustainability of it. But even in terms of like actresses of color, like you know, Lapetera Lapeita's doing like loads of work doing voice stuff. Amazing actress, but she's phenomenal. She should be as rich and successful as Margot Robbie, and we just live in such an inequitable society. And it's like I'm seeing that so clearly that it's almost like the truth is feeling like it's holding me back. Whereas when I was younger, I had a fuck you attitude. I'm going to change the world. I can really strongly imagine the world the way I want it to be. And yeah, I've never really seen a woman with dwarfs and play those characters, but I want to do it. I'm going to change the world. We need to do that. And I was doing that and I still really strongly believe that. But I'm also so battered by the discrimination and the lack of opportunity and the that I'm weathered by that as well. And it's trying to get that and I'm being really honest, it's trying to get that up to keep pushing. And it's like, because my career is successful, I'm pushing but at a higher level where the barriers are even more entrenched in that for a leading lady or a supporting role, we want somebody that is very particular, you know. And so it's just like changing those attitudes and being like, but I want to be doing more. I want to be doing harder stuff. I want to be doing groundbreaking stuff as I'm now a woman in my forties, as I'm now, you know, It's just it's possible, but it's just at the moment, I feel like I'm in this weird position of how to get the gur back, And it's just the reality of life and balancing that with your dreams and your passion and the vulnerability that comes with getting older at the same time as the world adds layers of prejudice, because the world is ageist as well as ablest. What if I'd not become an actress, and if I'd become a high school teacher and i just had fifty years of students come through my classroom and get over my dwarfism and be taught by me, learn an interesting subject, but also have learned that being different is okay? Is that any less valuable than trying to really publicly do it by playing different characters in different circumstances and things like There's I think it's so important to kind of think about what it is that inspires you in life and drives you, and how can you get that If somebody listens to this podcast and goes, oh, that was helpful, that's really helping to put my experience into perspective, awesome, you know. I think it's just kind of remembering that even if what you do is not internationally recognized with a massive award, it is so valuable because the people that love you and you interact with or even the stranger on the street that you smiled at that you made their day just that little bit better, those real world moments, that value that you bring.
00:31:31
Peta: Is it.
00:31:31
Kiruna: I just think that's actually what's important. It's the genuine human connection.
00:31:38
Peta: What a beautiful way and this conversation, I think you absolutely nailed that. And you have so spoken about so many things that I have going around in my head and you put words to it, and I'm sure many people listening will feel the same way. Thank you so much for your time, Kuran. I'm very aware it's very late there, you are, so thank you so much for your time. I have one last question that I always ask at the end of my podcast, and that's because when I started the podcast, I wanted a way for people to feel like they understood disabilities and for people with disabilities to be seen, because all too often I would go to a cafe and a stranger would ask me what happened to me? And that's a question I wish I never got asked again. And I know it's a very common one for many of us. But what's one question you hope a stranger to never ask you again?
00:32:33
Kiruna: I was asked by a dialect coach, so I'm working on an accent for another role. How I go to the toilet?
00:32:43
Peta: What what did you say? At the time, Well, I was.
00:32:47
Kiruna: Really confused because I was like a little bit genuinely like, why are you asking? And I looked at her and I just said because we were working on it actually at her house, and I hadn't used her bathroom at her house, and I'd said, why is there something unusual about your toilet, like is it a non standard height or something? And she looked really confused and went, know, why are you asking me that? And I went, because you've seen me get on and off like a standard chair. I don't understand what you think I would be struggling with unless your bathroom is weird. Is there something weird about your bathroom that I'm not aware of? Or were you worried about me not being able to reach the lock on the door or I don't And she was like, no, no, everything's standard, you know, And I went, then I don't really think I would have a problem, but I couldn't quite understand. You're not an occupational therapist. Why are you asking? I mean, it's rude. It's rude, it's impersonal, it's improper, it's completely inappropriate because it's also like, I think people are this weird idea that I'm so small I'm going to fall into the toilet. But then it's like, if that was the case, do you not think that I'd be I don't know, like that again, I wouldn't have a solution for that, or I'd have a care support worker to fish me out, do you know what I mean? Like, if it was a genuine you've not thought through your question, because if it was a genuine question, the solution would somehow be present. That weirdness is so revealing about others, and I just wish we would spotlight them more, you know, like we just because that's weird. We spend so much time analyzing ourselves as victims of their ableism, but sometimes their ablism is so revealing of to be honest, I think an undiagnosed, serious condition that we've just not given a name because it's weird.
00:34:44
Peta: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the I Can't Stand Podcast. If you enjoyed today's conversation, the best way you can support the show is by sharing it with a friend or posting about it on social media, and if you a moment, leaving a rating and review helps more people find these stories. Don't forget. You can always send me an email I Can't Stand Podcast at gmail dot com, or you can follow me over on Instagram at Peterhook. I'll see you next week. I would like to respectfully acknowledge the wondery and bunner wrong people of the Call and nation of which I record the podcast today, and I pay my respects to both elders past and present, along with and especially to those in the First Nation's communities who are disabled themselves.
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