Grace Spence Green: The Doctor Living the Social Model of Disability

Grace Spence Green was a medical student when a man jumped from a height in a shopping centre and landed on her, causing a spinal cord injury that left her paralysed from the chest down.

In this conversation, Grace speaks openly about the moment her life changed, the long road through hospital and rehabilitation, and what it was like to suddenly become the patient after training to care for others.

We talk about the ideas behind her book To Exist As I Am, including radical acceptance, the difference between the medical and social models of disability, and how she rebuilt a sense of identity after injury. Grace shares how her lived experience now shapes her work as a doctor, what helped her feel at home in her wheelchair, and why she challenges the tired cultural narratives of tragedy or inspiration.

Connect with Grace

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gracesg/?hl=en

Buy her book: https://www.waterstones.com/book/to-exist-as-i-am/grace-spence-green/

Connect with Peta Hooke

Instagram: @petahooke

Website: www.icantstandpodcast.com

Email: icantstandpodcast@gmail.com

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Episode transcript: 00:00:03

Peta: Hello, and welcome to the I Can't Stand Podcast, the show that explores what it's like to live with a disability. My name's Peta Hooke, I have several palsy and I'm your host. This week, I'm joined by Grace Spence Green, a junior doctor, writer and disability advocate whose story is frankly extraordinary. In twenty eighteen, she was walking through a shopping center when Grace was struck by a man who jumped from several stories above her. The impact fractured her spine and left her paralyzed. Yet less than a year later, she was back in medical school, determined to finish her training and build a life shaped by purpose. In her new book, To Exist As I Am, it's a power full reflection of what it means to rebuild, find joy and independence, and now that Grace has a disability, herself question the narrow ideas of disability. In this conversation, Grace and I talk about what it means to accept the unthinkable, to exist fully just as we are. Let's get into it.

00:01:32

Grace: Hello, it's a pleasure to be here. My name is Grace. I am a junior doctor working in London, and I am a full time wheelchair user.

00:01:43

Peta: Thank you so much for being here, Grace Now one of the reasons why I wanted to interview you, like, first and foremost, you're an extraordinary person. You're you know, being in the medical system as a disabled person is such a big thing because so many of us has so so much around the medical system. So it's lovely to know that there's more people that truly understand what it's like to live with a disability. So credit to you for working in that industry, because it's got to be tough. But also, I know you've just released a book exists as I am. Can you describe the book for those who haven't read it.

00:02:21

Grace: After my spinal cord injury in twenty eighteen, I began a diary and I would write every day to sort of anchor myself to the new reality I found myself in. And I wrote every day for years, and after a while, I felt like I was saying things, talking about things that I really wanted to share with others, and I felt like I wanted to write a book that was not only my personal story, but was bigger than me and about living as a disabled person in a society that has a very fixed view of who we are living in a world not designed for us, and how to navigate that.

00:03:06

Peta: So the book encompasses your life, but it also characterizes your accident. It was an extraordinary accident. That's the only word I can sort of think about, because I've never heard of anything else like this happening in the world. How did you decide what to share and what to not share?

00:03:28

Grace: I think I am very fine talking about my injury. The day of my injury, I don't really have any sort of traumatic memories from that. I barely remember it. But it felt like I had to address what had happened to me. But I wanted to do it in a way where I was sort of questioning why people feel the need, like strangers would feel the need to ask me what's wrong with me or what's happened to me, which I think, you know, lots of visibly disabled people get every day, And so I wanted to kind of reframe what had happened to me in that way. But I also, I think I need to acknowledge that because my injury, which I can talk about here if that's helpful, was so yeah, extraordinary. Also, it was really in the public in the media. It was really sensational. I could use that in my advantage to have a platform to talk about things that I actually wanted to talk about.

00:04:36

Peta: You have every right to tell your story. It's an extraordinary story, and I don't want to share it if you're not comfortable to hear, but please do if you want to. Like, I never want anybody to feel that they have to outline the day of their trauma, because you know, I think it's very presumptuous for people to be like, so what happened to you? As you said, how do you frame it in your mind that you have no anger and you never sort of have Is is that right?

00:05:07

Grace: Yeah? So if it's helpful for the listeners, I am. In twenty eighteen, I was a fourth year medical student when I was walking through a shopping center in London on my way to teach kids climbing, which I did in the afternoons, and I remember kind of walking through the main shopping center atrium and then I remember waking up on the floor and looking up at the ceiling of the atrium and it was so strange and surreal, but kind of even then I could get an understanding that people were around me while I was lying on the floor and they were telling me that I had been hit, and there was another figure kind of near me with another group of people, and they were telling him that he had fallen. I would find out later that he had jumped from the third floor of the shopping center and sort of landed headfirst onto my back. This had broken my spine in multiple places, including my neck, but that one specific break of my vertebrate had pushed into my spinal cord causing my spinal injury, causing me to be a full time manual wheelchair user.

00:06:21

Peta: And did you, obviously, in that period of moment you have a medical understanding of what was going on? Do you think that was a blessing? Was that a curse or a mixture of the booth?

00:06:33

Grace: Yeah, it's a good question. It's it's really hard because it's it was so interesting to me that I can I can really understand I should be able to understand that prognosis or what the consequences of that injury are. But being suddenly a patient I had just there was so much denial, so much I think because the circumstances around my injury were so random as well, that I it took me. It took me months to understand really what had happened and the consequences of that. So, yeah, it was really interesting to me. Even to have all this knowledge didn't kind of help me understand things quicker.

00:07:17

Peta: You know, it was a completely random thing that happened to you. It was no fault of your own. So then going from the medical student to the patient, I presume was quite a difficult transition. Was it was being a patient what you expected.

00:07:34

Grace: I'd been a patient like as a child before and things, but I had no idea, I think really what I was in for. I think I had a and as you do as a medical student, like the hospital was somewhere that I loved going to because it was, you know, my workplace. It was where I learned things, and I think I had a very maybe naive view of what the patient experience was. And suddenly being not only a patient, but a disabled patient, so really feeling like at times I had no autonomy, no dignity, no control of my internal or external surroundings. It was really shocking to me. I think I was very humbled by the experience.

00:08:21

Peta: Were you supplied any mental health support in the hospital, because I hope that you were. But when I speak to people who were in hospital, particularly through their childhood, it was very focused on our physical disability and you know, quote improving in whatever manner that was, but there was no emphasis on our mental health.

00:08:47

Grace: Yeah, completely, and I think I so I spent two and a half weeks at the Royal London, which is a big acute trauma hospital, and there I remember saying something like, I think I should talk to someone about this, Like this feels like I need to talk to someone. And I had a psychologist come up twice, but I think then it was kind of almost just too there was it was too early to really be able to talk about much. But when I moved to the rehabilitation hospital, I did have a psychiatrist actually, and he was brilliant, and I think that was really helpful to me. Actually, kind of one of the most helpful things was a psychologist there who never I never spoke to her, but she was a wheelchair user and that just blew my mind because I'd never seen a visibly disabled healthcare worker before and I just thought, oh, that's so okay, that's exciting, like that she's doing that, that's it feels possible, then.

00:09:55

Peta: It's so important. You know it's a cliche, but if you can't see it, you think you can't be it. So it's sorry, Like, oh, there's someone exactly you know, similar to me. They got through a system that inherently isn't very welcoming to us. That's my experience. I want more input words in your mouth. But did you also find that your relationship with your doctors quite fraught or was it easier because you did have that medical knowledge and you could talk as sort of equals.

00:10:27

Grace: Yeah, I think it. You know, I've heard the phrase that doctors don't make very good patience, and I don't, to be fair, I don't think that there should be the term you shouldn't have to be like well behaved as a patient. But I don't think I was very well behaved. I got I was so angry a lot of the time. I'd get so annoyed when people wouldn't introduce themselves or wouldn't explain things properly. I remember one of the nurses at the Royal London told me that people, all the nurses were afraid of me because I was a medical student. And I thought that was so strange because like I, you know, at the end of the day, I was just trying to advocate for myself, and it made me think I was in quite just a position of privilege to have a bit of that language and understanding, so I could say like, no, that's not okay, or when am I going to when is this going to happen? And I'd spend like a lot of time for some reason imagining like instead a little old lady that like didn't have that language or knowledge or I didn't want to make a fuss, and how things can get missed and if you're not kind of on the ball yourself as a patient. So yeah, that was really really revealing to me.

00:11:43

Peta: I'm interested with your practice now, how you inform me yourself because obviously this was such her life holding event, but it must inform you in how you conduct yourself today.

00:12:00

Grace: Yeah, definitely, Like I call it the best placement I could have had as a medical student, this time I spent as a patient. I think at the start, when I first started working, I was like so painfully aware of kind of myself being in the patient bed and experience, and so like I felt like I was almost too to get very concerned about like their how they were feelings they're in pain, that if the curtains were closed, if they felt in control, And I think that was all really important. But I think I'm trying to balance also feeling like a doctor and that I'm not ill and I can go home at the end of the day. So I'm trying to do, you know, for my own sanity. But I think, yeah, it's really informed how I yeah, just even how I speak to people and how I introduce myself and how I explain things, and I think the small things I really am much more aware of.

00:12:57

Peta: Now, how long were you in hospital and rehabilitation?

00:13:01

Grace: If you don't mind me asking, I was in a hospital in total for three months.

00:13:08

Peta: Okay, that's quite a long period, my goodness. Obviously, I mean it's a traumatic event, so I would assume that you had been there quite a long time. But for me, and I'm clearly not a medical person, but for me, I just wanted to get out of hospital as quick as I could. And if I never went back into one, I'm doing a good thing. So did you ever think, no, actually being in medicine isn't actually for me? Now, did it ever rock your internal compass? Of what you wanted to do for your career.

00:13:42

Grace: No, Actually, it's funny. I think the opposite happened, really, because it felt like after my injury, I suddenly had no idea who I was or who I was supposed to be. I couldn't I didn't have any disabled friends. I didn't like have anyone to even just look at and think, oh, well, they're doing that and they've got a good life, like that'll be me. So medicine was actually kind of the only thing part of me that I could cling on too, because I knew I'd been told that they are would be supported back to medical school the next year. So no, I kind of kind of saved me, I think for a while there, because I felt like I still had a part of myself that hadn't sort of been lost and had to be rebuilt. But yeah, I it was funny. Actually I really didn't want to leave hospital at the end, which now I'm like, yeah, I'm the same. If I don't have to go into one as a patient, then I'm happy. But I think it was because I felt so unsure of how I was going to navigate the world now, and the rehab hospital as painful as it was. It was this sort of safe bubble that you kind of could exist in. So yeah, I didn't want to leave.

00:14:58

Peta: You're right, I think the medic environment have an inherent understanding of disability, and as we both know, the big wide world does not. And coming out of that medical system, I'm sure really marked for you a change of what your life was going to be going forward, and not knowing what that was going to be must have been really scary.

00:15:21

Grace: Yeah. Absolutely, Like I could even like stand more. Were great at getting me up to a level of just kind of functional, you know, but when I'd say, like what about like I got used to being able to self catheterize, could manage that, but I was thinking, I kept thinking, well, what about like a firm at a restaurant or a pub or like what what do I This sort of wasn't like learning on how I was going to navigate like random accessible toilets or and so and kind of you know, could I wear Like I wasn't sure if I could even wear jeans anymore or things like this, So I just it I felt like I yeah, I just kind of learned to function, and then I kind of was very lost on how I was going to actually live a fulfilling life.

00:16:07

Peta: How did you end up learning? Did you go to social media? What helped you or was it just trial and error?

00:16:14

Grace: Yeah, social media was actually life changing for me at that time. It was just so helpful on my feed to just look at people doing just like ordinary things. I think that's what I really wanted. I didn't care about someone climbing up a mountain or I just wanted to see like, oh, a teacher that's a wheelchair user, or a lawyer or a or someone that had a kid, or just like very ordinary things were so important to me.

00:16:47

Peta: So when you did get home, did you you obviously had to adapt your house. I'm getting so what was that process, Like, was that done before you arrived home or was that done after the fact.

00:17:00

Grace: I could see kind of what social services were able to offer me, which was like a council flat but maybe in two years, But what my parents could do, which was kind of adapt their house for me for me to move in because we were living on a boat before my injury, which just wasn't going to be possible. So my partner and I moved into there for a bit, and then we were really lucky to find a flat nearby and have sort of slowly made it adapted. But yeah, I just actually recently I had a phone call that said, oh, hello, is it Grace, and your bed's ready, And had no idea what they were talking about, and I kept asking, and it turns out that a physiotherapist from kind of my counsel had reviewed me six years ago and had advised then that I would like it would be helpful for me to have a bed that could kind of move up. And six years later it was ready for me, and I thought, oh my god, I didn't even know like and I was lucky I didn't need it. I wasn't waiting for it. But I thought, people that are relying on these this equipment and these services, it's just it's they're just so lacking.

00:18:15

Peta: After everything sort of settled down, how did you find like adapting with friends, Because I think that's also a big knowledge gap that you don't want to be pitied, but you also want people to understand that this has been a life altering event for you and making sure people understand the balance.

00:18:39

Grace: Yeah, that's kind of exactly it. I found. I felt like for a while that I had kind of gone to war and come back, and I was the only one. My friends were great, but it was it was really hard to navigate, and I think I it took me a while to realize that this hadn't actually just happened to me. It happened to lots of people had been affected by what happened to me, and so I felt like at the start people thought I was quite fragile. I don't know, they didn't know how to like physically interact with me anymore, and that took a lot of time for people to be comfortable. And I think it was really hard navigating places that are really inaccessible anyway, and then being then kind of feeling like I wasn't invited to things anymore as much because it would be difficult for me to So I had to have like some quite uncomfortable conversations with friends, which I think has made us all stronger, but it was it was a really difficult time.

00:19:40

Peta: I always say that my disability is like a built in bullshit radar, like I can just tell whether people are genuine and lovely or whether people are instantly uncomfortable with my disability. And did you find there was a bit of a shift particularly with your acquaintances in your life.

00:19:59

Grace: Yeah, that's exactly it. I couldn't believe it, particularly with acquainted Like people that weren't my close friends would say the strangest things to me suddenly, and I think, oh God, I didn't know you were going to be like this or you'd be so weird now that I was disabled. So that was really interesting, and it was it was really helpful in some ways. I feel like, I really it was a good kind of filter, and I think, oh, I don't want to hang out with someone that is so odd or kind of sayingly inappropriate things, or is just not unable to handle. And I had that even with some close friends that were just unable to handle what happened to me for whatever reason, and they just they kind of just dropped off, and which is fine, Like it's like now I think that was that's okay to kind of remind yourself, who are you? How are your good friends?

00:20:51

Peta: And who?

00:20:52

Grace: Yeah, maybe you're not. The ability to make people uncomfortable just by like entering a room was actually quite like a power. I found it. I was I kind of reframed it as like, oh, absolutely, it's quite yeah powerful to be able to make people uncomfortable just by like your mere presence, and I started to sort of lean into it more, you know, I'd be like, you look really uncomfortable, or you okay, and sometimes even just like enjoy it a bit. So that's been that shift in my perspective has really helped me, because I think I used to feel really like an internalized I think, oh, no, I'm making people feel a certain way, and yeah.

00:21:37

Peta: And that's where it's a difficult balance, I think for me, because often my instinct is to educate and be like, you know what, actually you might not understand, but what you're doing right now is ablest and explain why. But in the end, sometimes you've got to switch that part of your brain off and just not have disability in your head, because in the end, you're still grace and there's so many other points to you that's not just your disability.

00:22:05

Grace: Yeah, and I think you sound much more patient than me. I just get so and I did at the start. I think I and you know, not saying you do this, but I had. If people would ask me what was wrong with me, I'd always tell them. And then I got to the point that I was just like exhausted by it, and I was like, I don't It's not even the telling them, it's the reaction that I don't know what I'm going to get. I'm going to get something I might get. Oh, that's so you're what a tragedy? What poor you? Like that I didn't need to hear in my daily life. And so I think it's disabled people. You have to interact with so many more people on a day to day basis than like a bodied people can imagine, like I, you know, with if people want to help you, or even if you don't need help, people will try and interact with you or just and I just was reaching my limit of that, but also having to answer these questions or kind of have difficult interactions with strangers. So I've had to try and protect my peace a bit.

00:23:05

Peta: You have to protect your emotions as well, because it can be so draining to have people react directly to you and what happened to you, And it's like to take that on every day, no matter how much you think you've moved on, it's then to realize that other people have moved on with you.

00:23:25

Grace: Yeah, that's exactly it. And it's like I kind of forget how I'm perceived sometimes and then someone will be really strange in a supermarket or they'll say, I hope you're going to get better, or what to poor you, or saying tell me, telling me like well done from reaching something up, you know, on my shelf, and I think, oh, okay, I'm reminded that I'm very abnormal to some people. They can't really they have to interact with me, they have to say something, and you're right, like, even how how good my life feels now and how it's still like I don't want to hear other people's perceptions of it and what they've assumed and kind of their own ignorance. I think I don't. I don't need that in my daily life.

00:24:10

Peta: How did you like? Of course, we all have our moments of being like this is sorry shit, particularly when there's challenges that we can't control, you know, things like when my equipment breaks down, I really struggle day to day. If everything works, I'm pretty good. How did you not go into that spiral of why mean?

00:24:32

Grace: I think I definitely did at the start of my After my injury, I think I it was less why I mean, but sort of what if I constantly like over, you know, agonize and kind of go and ruminate on well, you know, because it's quite easy to say, oh, well, what if I was like two seconds before or after, you know, or I went it wasn't at the shopping set whatever. But that felt so like useless to me. It felt like I was just actually causing myself more pain for sort of nothing. And then I think I while I was doing that, I felt like I had to really confront the idea that well, what if I had died instead, that that could have happened. So I can't just keep saying what it because I you know, I should. I'm very lucky to actually still be here as well, So that kind of helped me stop doing ruminating on that so much. But I still definitely have days where I find I'm trying to give myself a bit of grace because I do, especially when i'm the same, like I when my equipmental works, like when my hand bike works like I'm really good, But when suddenly something breaks down or something gets like broken at an airport or whatever happens, suddenly I'm reminded like, oh god, I really have to rely on this stuff to have to do all the things I want to do, and that can be quite hard to confront.

00:26:02

Peta: As we said, you have a book as exists as I am, which is amazing.

00:26:07

Grace: Thank you.

00:26:08

Peta: When I think about writing a book and sharing a story, were you ever hesitant to know when to do it? I know you said your approached by publisher, But putting things down in writing is encapsulates the person you were when you wrote the book, and we all evolve as we get older in our ideas evolve and we understand internalized ableism more. Was there ever any hesitation to think, what if I write something down that isn't correct according to the disability community or future grace would be like, oh that's not quite right.

00:26:44

Grace: Yeah, that was That was definitely a concern, and I think I was also worried. You know, I was talking about people that existed, you know, in my life in the book, and so that was difficult. I think it was so lucky that my publishers were so like, gave me so much space to write this book. There was no rush, you know. I'd ask my editor how long and I had and she'd say, like, how long is a piece of string? We have time just so I think this book could only come out because it took five years to think about these things and learn about these things. But yeah, I'm really aware that I want to kind of make sure it came out that this is my personal story and my personal experience. And I think because I really struggle when I think a lot of able bodied people and I've had it happen to me, They'll see like one disabled person and I'll think, Oh, that's what that's what we all think, that's what we all act like. And so it was really hard to balance discussing disability in general but trying to bring it back to my journey and my may feelings.

00:27:53

Peta: Were there any parts of the book that you found really difficult to write or that you put off or you didn't know how to put words to how you felt or experienced.

00:28:02

Grace: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's it's interesting like I found it. I found it really hard to write about the day of my injury, not because I it was upsetting, but just because I had said it so many times in so many ways that I kind of wanted and I wanted to frame it in a way that was really concise but clear. But I think the times that I found really difficult to write about more emotionally was there's a there's a part where I am I'm in an accessible toilet and someone is trying to come in, and that was just it was one of the most traumatic experiences I think I've had recently. Like I still get very anxious when someone's knocking on, you know, the door of a disabled toilet, and so that sort of thing was really hard, and I think I sort of took it for granted. I thought, oh, no, I'm like, I'm fine, I can write about anything. But then I'd wake up after like a nightmare about it and think, oh, okay, that was a bit difficult. And definitely the stuff some of the medical trauma like I like I always say, I don't have any traumatic experiences from the day of my injury, but the days after absolutely.

00:29:19

Peta: Is there anything that you hope that the book adds to the broader conversation about disability and maybe disability culture.

00:29:28

Grace: Yeah, I think I really wanted to kind of add how much nuance there is to disability that I just think we don't get often. I felt like when I was first injured, especially because I was young, I sort of had these roles to fit into, which was either to become a paralympian, or to do some really huge physical feat, or to learn to walk again. And I think the learning to walk again is like so in everything we watch and do, and even like with my friends and even with people I spoke to, they always be like, are you are you walking yet? How's that going? Like that should now be my like number one goal? And I think I hadn't read anything about reframing recovery in terms of how I feel now and what my life is like rather than, as you said, the physical recovery. And so that that's really kind of why I felt like I had something to say.

00:30:28

Peta: This might come across as unprofessional and by part, but I respect every single person that I've ever had on this podcast, But if I have someone that talks about the importance of walking again, it makes me physically uncomfortable. I don't know what that says about me, But there's so much importance held to walking, and I guess because I didn't succeed in that, it goes on my own internal biases and insecurities, I suppose. But why do you think walking is still held up as such a pinnacle in both part of the disability community but also the non disability community.

00:31:12

Grace: I really think it's to do with kind of ablebodied people's perception of us, and I think we as a society it's like all about quick fixes like plastic surgery or weight loss or things before and after, and even like on the movies and TV, like the amount of learning to walk again scenes I've seen where they kind of do a montage and then they're going across the parallel bars, and I think at least for averbodied people, it's like, oh, you're walking again. You're fine. We don't have to worry about access now. I don't have to be uncomfortable around you because you look the same as I do now. And I think maybe that's a negative view of it, but I do think that was that was, that's it, really, And I think I was trying to kind of learn to walk again or at least stand again. I went to like new physio for like six months after my injury, but I and I kind of learned little tiny movements. But I think it took me a while to realize I wasn't doing this for myself because I still had a spinal injury, I still had all the neuropathic pain, I still had like lack of sensation in some places. I still had all these other mountain of things to deal with, but that was all sort of hidden. But the learning to walk again was, you know, the main goal, and I do. I think it's just because I would look not disabled.

00:32:33

Peta: Well said, do you ever run up against that in the medical system now at work?

00:32:39

Grace: Yeah? Absolutely. I think it's it's still so ingrained to like the medical model of disability. That's all I was taught in medical school, and that's all I see. Really. I think there's this sort of constant well, there's an idea that I will have to fix myself to sort of fit into the world that's very predesigned for not not us. And yeah, I saw that all the time. And I think it's really interesting because you don't, especially in medical school, I didn't hear from any disabled people about how they felt about if they wanted to wear like giant those like metal calibers so they could like stand up, or if they wanted to do these things, or what their experiences are. It was just like, oh, you go to rehab and then you learn to do this and then you're sort of done. So No, I think it's it's a huge issue in the medical field, and even like language that is, like I still see wheelchair boundues like so often on actual like medical documents and forms and things, and it drives me mad.

00:33:51

Peta: Are you happy with the person you are now and sort of have you let go of the person you are before? Or do you see it as like the whole puzzle of yourself.

00:34:01

Grace: Yeah, it's a good question, Peter, because I kind of feel like my injury happened at such a transformative time anywhere I was twenty two. I don't think I knew who I was at all then anyway, and I think so some of what's happened to me, I think, is that just because I grew up? Or is that all because of my injury that I've changed? I think I can thank my injury for a lot of things, the qualities that I really like about myself now. I think I'm much less of a people pleaser and much much more able to advocate for myself or stand up for myself. I think I can have much more honest conversations with family and friends, because I think you have to as a disabled person, because you have to be vulnerable with people. You don't really have that choice and so I think in that way it's made lots of my connections much stronger. So I think I have my injury to thank for that. I don't really know who I was before now it feels like so long ago, and I think maybe I was just still finding my way.

00:35:04

Peta: And has it changed to you want to become in the.

00:35:06

Grace: Future, Yeah, definitely. I think what I find interesting is reading back these diaries, even like three years ago, some of the stuff I was saying or feeling, I think, oh, that's thank.

00:35:18

Peta: You so much. Episode I can't stand.

00:35:22

Grace: I can feel quite.

00:35:23

Peta: Sorry to enjoy the best way you can the show.

00:35:29

Grace: I felt really about vulnerable to having.

00:35:32

Peta: And if you have a moment, leaving a rating and review helps more people.

00:35:37

Grace: That gives me a lot of hope that don't forget.

00:35:39

Peta: You can always send me an email who am going to podcast? Or you can follow me over on Instagram.

00:35:47

Grace: All of that myself.

00:35:49

Peta: I'll see you next week to come. I would like to respectfully acknowledge there wandering and Bunner wrong people of the Call and nation which I record the podcast to day, and I pay my respects to both elders past and present, along with and especially to those in the First Nation's communities who are disabled themselves,