Welcome back!
For the launch of season 4 of The I Can't Stand Podcast Peta sits down with Jodi Rodgers. They discuss the complexity of relationships and dating when you have a disability.
Jodi Rodgers is a renowned sexologist and councillor who appeared on the ABC and Netflix docu-drama Love of The Spectrum.
Jodi shares her experiences working with neurodiverse individuals and explores the challenges of navigating dating apps and the importance of inclusive sex education.
You can buy Jodi's new book Unique: https://www.hachette.com.au/jodi-rodgers/unique-what-autism-can-teach-us-about-difference-connection-and-belonging
Connect with Jodi:
Website: birdsandbees.com.au
Facebook: facebook.com/jodibirdsandbees
Connect with Peta:
Instagram: @petahooke
Website: www.icantstandpodcast.com
Email: icantstandpodcast@gmail.com
Episode Transcript:
Peta [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to The I Can't Stand Podcast, the podcast answering your questions about what life is like when you have a disability. My name's Peta. I have cerebral palsy and I'm your host. Well, here we are, season four of The I Can't Stand Podcast. It's so good to be back. And what a great way to start. If I do say so myself, today I have Jodi Rodgers on the podcast. Not only is Jodi a lovely human, she she's a counsellor, a sexologist. And you might have seen she was featured on love on the spectrum, the ABC and also Netflix documentary drama following people who are autistic, dating and trying to find love. And Jodi supported a number of people in that process. I absolutely loved talking to Jodi. So without any further ado, let's get into it.
Jodi [00:01:15] Hi, my name's Jodi Rogers. I'm counsellor and sexologist. I was featured as the counsellor on the television show love on the spectrum.
Peta [00:01:29] Thank you so much for your work. I think it's a really important area and aspect we need to talk more of, because relationships and disability is still such a taboo topic. But before we get into that, I want to start with the very basic of why do you love working with autistic people?
Jodi [00:01:49] I work with all people with disabilities because in my practice, my private practice as a sexologist and relationship counsellor, I work with people with cognitive disability and intellectual disability, autistic people. I work with any person that may communicate in a different way or learn in a different way. And for me, that was fundamentally important because my belief is that every single person should have accessible information. And what I was finding in my career as twisted and turned, was that I could see that there were many people that were not having access to information about sex and sexuality and relationships. That was in a way that was understandable to them, and it really gave me the shits. I can spend 6 to 7 hours a day, all week with individuals, and my job in that space is to listen. There is not two people who move through the world in the same way, or have the same perspective or point of view. And everybody has to be listened to as an individual.
Peta [00:03:06] Gosh, I wish there were more Jodi Rodgers around because I completely agree with you 100%, which is why I find it so interesting that you have decided to write your amazing book, which I have read. It's great. It's known as Unique in Australia and New Zealand and in the UK and America I believe is How To Find A Four Leaf Clover. Tell me about the book. And why was this the book you wanted to write?
Jodi [00:03:34] I am a massive storyteller, and I believe that when we listen to people's stories and then we realise stories to one another, then it helps us with empathy. It helps us with understanding. So there's never been a moment in my life that I'm not telling stories, listening to stories and then telling stories. My hope is that any person that reads the book will learn a little bit more about themselves, and they'll learn a little bit more about everybody else around them. But my deepest, deepest hope is that it will help people be more patient, more understanding, more accepting of people who are different than they are. And the books very accessible. It is all short stories. There is no academic jargon in there at all. It's a book about what autistic people have taught me, about being compassionate and about how we communicate, and that how we connect with each other and how every single person really wants to belong. We we all want to belong.
Peta [00:04:52] I really admire you for going into this area of expertise, first of all. But when I specifically think of the book, I really want to dive in with you and understand how you balance. Telling autistic people's stories as a neurotypical person without taking the story away from them. And I really think that you're clearly such a strong ally and advocate. But how do you balance that? As far as using people's stories for good?
Jodi [00:05:30] Do you know, that is such a great question. It is an incredibly important question because one of the things that I really struggled with, and I'm talking really struggled with sleepless nights, waking up in the middle of the night, being very, very anxious, was the fact that I didn't know whether it was my place to write this. And I really struggled with it, and I struggled with it immensely, because how can I say to everybody, listen to the stories of the people who have got the life experience? How can I say that and then be the person writing about it? I went and saw an autistic psychologist because I wanted to speak to a psychologist about my anxiety about it, but I wanted to speak to an autistic person so they had their framework and perspective. I was really actually pushed by the autistic people in my life, and there was a couple that were really, fundamental for me. There's a story in the book about a young woman that when she was going through school, was so isolated and so lonely that she used to escape the school classroom or playground and would go and hide in a space in the room. Now that it was, it was really hard story for her to tell me. And she still is a woman that is very, very isolated. She's very, very socially anxious. I wrote a bit a little, you know, wrote a snippet about something that she'd said to me and I'll read it back to her. Because any person I write about, I ask their permission and everybody is de-identified. Of course, sometimes it's a combination of 5 or 6 people rolled into one person. But she particularly said to me when I read it to her, I said, do you think I should write this? And she said to me, if you don't write this, how is anybody going to know my story? Because there is so many autistic people. That can not put a face out there because that's too anxiety provoking for them. So she she said, please. You know, she said, please, because you've got a platform to say some stories about autistic people that many of us haven't got the capacity to say. And all I can hope is that. The autistic community. Understand that this is my way of trying to shake up neurotypical people's judgement. I hope they understand that, but. But I also know that. The autistic people in my life, of whom there are many, many people that I have been so encouraging and so supportive of me. And so if they're proud of me, then that's all I need to know. I. Yeah. We are just really hope that, people understand that I'm coming from a place of genuine. Deep, deep respect.
Peta [00:08:57] As I say, I think the the book is beautiful and I really admire you doing that for the, nerodiverse community. And just because you're maybe neurotypical doesn't mean that you can't assist in the progression of the disabled voice. And like, I'm sure there are many people, hopefully, who are autistic who read the book. I hope that they then feel like their story is even more valid, and they are then encouraged to speak themselves and share their story if they feel they're comfortable to do that. On to. Probably the thing that a lot of people listening to this episode for, other than your lovely book and that is sex education and all the fun things that sex can bring. Disability and sex is such a taboo topic, as I said at the top of this episode, and I believe it's a really important aspect to everybody's life. When you look at the educational setting, I think sex education could be more inclusive. What's your perspective? How could sex education become more inclusive, say, in the school environment?
Jodi [00:10:10] If we don't educate people well in a way that they can comprehend, it is understandable to them and relatable. It's got to be highly relatable then that leaves people vulnerable. And as we know, the statistics of sexual abuse too, particularly women, disabled women, women with a disability is shocking. I also work with people that are very, very vulnerable to offending behaviours because of lack of education as well. So for me it's paramount, but also apart from that, apart from the parts of sexuality. That we don't want to, you know, that are the sad parts of sexuality. You know, sexuality is everything. Our sexuality is a complete expression of self. So I you know, it is your gender identity. It is sexual orientation. It is all about you sensuality. It's about half and sensuality so related to how you feel in your body and feeling comfortable and beautiful in your self-esteem and self-worth and your confidence. And the intimate relationships are not just physically intimate, they're also intimate in the way that we share and communicate with one another and be vulnerable with one another. So for me, you know, and then, of course, there's all the other sex parts, but. You know, the further we are away from what we're sold. And I'm saying sold. What we sold and told is sexy, then the harder it is for us to be able to identify as kind of a sexual being and that is that is community wide. You know, I'm getting older. And so I keep saying I'm becoming invisible, but it's actually giving me very, very big insight into other people that I spend time with that say to me. Yeah, but Jodi, I've been invisible for a long time. You know, with these people with intellectual disabilities, I could be saying that they're going to have sex, but they don't even know, really, the mechanics of what's going on. Because if you think about the education, particularly if you're somebody with a cognitive or intellectual disability, if you've been through an education system where you've been educated or given sex ed, but all anybody has ever talked about is the mechanics and it's very hetero sexist, and it's often based on reproduction. It's often based on penis into vagina. But people haven't even explained what an erection is, what ejaculation is. Modern dating apps are almost killing me. That's a killer. You know, helping people understand if some of the autistic clients that I have who have been brought up in a world where they have been, I wouldn't understand what ghosting is, because to them, it's that it's just like, why wouldn't a person just give you the information to say I'm not into you? Breaking down the idea of the you might meet one person and then that person might not be your sole mate look how actually difficult and how do these and the resilience and courage that it takes to just keep going again and again and again and again and again, what rejection feels like? I don't know you if you just if you just go anywhere in your mind and think any part of sexuality or sex or any part of relationships, I've probably discussed it.
Peta [00:13:56] Well, as you've said, I mean, I I'm a single woman, I'm on the dating apps and I'm, you know, neurotypical. And I find dating apps so difficult as somebody who is sitting here and has a disability or people who are listening who have disabilities, when should we disclose that we have disabilities? How do you suggest we manage that on the apps? Because I just find it a minefield, to be honest.
Jodi [00:14:24] Yeah, it is a minefield. And it's a very hard question for me to answer with generalisation because, you know, there's some people that just will have it in their profile and a very upfront with that. And it's like, well, if you don't accept this kind of me, then you know, I'm not into you either. There's other people that have been spent a lifetime feeling that this component of themselves is something that, they, they don't want people to know straight up front. It's really hard Peta because, you know, I wish I could say I'm right here we go dating apps 1 oh 1, but they are shit. It's a very, very hard one to navigate when there is so much choice and so many options that are going on within those dating apps. Every individual has to do what they feel is best for them. They did this really amazing research recently that said this, what I mean about resilience to with these things that people actually have dating, burnout, like dating, app burnout because it's soo exhausting having to be on them all the time. And then you might be talking to somebody and then bang, they're gone or there was some research that was done this in Australian research that said that the average was it was 71. Dates and I'm talking dates that people went on before that fan. So that's hard.
Peta [00:16:03] And I think that goes to just why love on the spectrum was so successful. Because people can relate regardless of whether, you're neurodivergent or neurotypical. Like dating experiences can be so similar. It's so challenging as we've discussed. And like, of course, that's probably where a lot of people will know your work now Jodi. like you've had such huge, amazing exposure. But I understand when you first were approached for the show, you said no. And like, to be honest, we know what reality TV shows can be like, particularly around dating shows. I think, you know, comes to mind for an Australian context, is, Married at First Sight, has atrocious editing and can be really bad for people's self-esteem in the cast and etcetera. But how did you then get to the point of saying yes, being comfortable to do this and putting your professional name towards a reality show? How did you get from a no to a yes?
Jodi [00:17:08] As soon as I got the text saying, would you be on the show? My very initial reaction was, no, way am I going to do that? Absolutely no way. One I have never wanted to be on television. The second one was I hold my job to very, very high regard, very high regard, and I hold the genuine relationship that is required in counselling to be the most important, integral part. But I had somebody say to me in my life, well, who else is going to do it? You know, this is what you do all day long, every day. This is your job you know, you know this. Who else is going to do that? So anyway, the other thing that they said to me, Peta was it will only be 5 minutes for one episode on the ABC. That'll be it. While I was there, the production team were very respectful of the autistic people in the show. There was no casting. The autistic people wanted to be on that show. They'd put themselves forward as expression of interest to be on the show. They were all desperate to, you know, be there. And they were very, very respectful of people needing breaks or wanting to stop or, you know, just doing all of that. So that helped me sort of feel comfortable. But the thing that you hit on just before Peta was the thing that I found the most fascinating thing. So, of course, there's a lot of people that, and, you know, I think everybody's point of view we should listen to with deep respect. And there's a lot of people that came out saying, this is just, inspiration porn. And I can understand that completely, that perspective. And that is we should never, ever be doing that. But the thing that I found is that show, because it was about dating, has had a massive impact on the neurotypical population because dating and seeking, seeking connection, seeking a partner is on everybody's agenda. Then all of a sudden I think people went, oh, what is this show? There are people that I know that watch the show. I didn't even know what love on the spectrum meant. I didn't even pick up the spectrum part, meaning autism. They thought it was like all the different types of love that people have started watching it, and all of a sudden they have got exposure and education about autistic people. Lots of people. The feedback was I feel like that when I go on a date. Oh I wish I knew how to do that. Oh, when I get nervous, I talk about myself all the time. So it's funny, it had a run on effect to lots and lots of people. But yeah, they talked me into it.
Peta [00:19:58] Well, it ended up being a very good decision. Particularly from where I'm sitting, particularly around humanising people with disabilities, making people realise that we're really not that different. We all have needs and desires, and we all want to be loved, because I still think there is a very disturbing perception in society that particularly, autistic people aren't adults. And it was lovely to see and illustrate that autistic people are just like every other adult.
Jodi [00:20:32] So wholeheartedly agree with you that there is still a large perception. And I still hear it all the time. And it shocks me when people say what they'd want to have sex? Bloody hell. And even if they are asexual, they might not want to have sex, but they want to hang out with somebody. They want to have companionship. Want to have somebody that is with them that, you know, go to the movies with and eat popcorn on the couch with and watch the footy with on the weekend. And, just drives me bonkers, to tell you the truth.
Peta [00:21:08] Yeah. I'm with you. I'm with you. And the more education we can get out there that we're all adults and we're all equal, and we all have the same needs as everybody else, the better.
Jodi [00:21:21] Sometimes when people with an intellectual disability or cognitive disability come to see me and they've had another person speak for them their whole lives, I might say, bring the support of a trusted support worker along with you, because that person in my mind helps you to generalise and retain information we're talking about into day to day stuff. But sometimes what I find is that say or ask somebody a question. I know that auditory processing takes quite some time. I know that being put on the spot can be difficult. I know that so many people I work with will just give me a yes answer, even though it's not yes, sometimes people will just go, I don't know because they've never ever been given a voice to speak up with. Now, if we don't allow people to have a voice, because I also know that if you sit for long enough, if you ask somebody a question, and I might not get it to start with. So you reframe the way that you ask the question. You use visual supports, you do whatever you can, but you need that person to indicate or make a choice, because choice is the most important part of that being alive. I want every single person that I hang out with to have the right to say no and know I have to say yes and have all the information, because then I can make informed choices all the time. It doesn't matter how long it takes. It doesn't matter how many ways that we have to reframe what we're asking for that person to make the decision. It doesn't matter. We have to find for somebody that has complex physical disability and their non-speaking, it doesn't matter how much we have to look for voluntary movement so they can make choices, that is what we need to do. If somebody is not allowed to speak, if somebody is not allowed to be given a voice. What happens is people are left so vulnerable to abuse and neglect. And I'm almost going to start crying now as I'm saying this, because it drives me wild. I will for the rest of my life, Peta. I promise you this for the rest of my life. I know I haven't got lived to experience. But what I do have is knowing what our fundamental rights are, and I will do whatever I can to make sure that the people that I spend my life with, that they are given the opportunity to have those rights upheld.
Peta [00:23:46] Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode, and for coming back to The I Can't Stand Podcast for season four. This year is going to be a great season. I can just tell I have many amazing guests, but boy oh boy was Jodi a great way to kick off the podcast for this season. If you did enjoy this episode, can I encourage you to share the show on social media or write and review the show on Apple or Spotify? It helps more people find the podcast. You can also follow me over on Instagram as well. My handle is @PetaHooke, but until next week, have a good one guys. Bye. I would like to respectfully acknowledge the Wurundjeri and Bunurong people of the Kulin nation, of which I record the podcast today. And I pay my respects to both elders, past and present, along with and especially to those in the First Nations communities who are disabled themselves.